SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I found John Gottman’s book "seven principles for making marriages work" while cleaning out my closets.
I had not looked at this book in many years but was curious to see what he says about infidelity. He writes "problems in the marriage that send the couple on a trajectory to divorce also send one or both of them looking for intimate connection outside the marriage (extramarital affairs)" He also refers to a study done on divorce by Lynn Gigy and Joan Madera in which they found 80% of marriages broke up because they gradually grew apart while only 20-27% said infidelity was even partially to blame.

Here on SI many BS blame themselves for their WS’s cheating. We go through a slew of only if we did this, that. Only if we were this and that. You know the drill. It’s a never ending torment of regret and self blame.

Most people who have not been affected by infidelity believe it happened because there was something wrong in the marriage. Maybe the BS was a nag, not good in bed, was a bitch, was a jerk, didn’t make enough money, etc. So much shame gets put on the betrayed
But here is this supposed guru who says problems in a marriage cause someone to cheat. So it isn’t about the defect in the cheater? Am I reading this wrong?
What are your thoughts?

I son't think Gottman goes into blame. He just says some people cheat.

If you want to think in terms of an 'M problem', I'm OK with that - as long as you name the problem correctly. For example, the problem in my M was that my W thought she could deal with her own issues by cheating.

It may be even more accurate to say, 'My W cheated as a way to avoid dealing with her own issues.'

I think one or both of those statements is true for virtually every WS.

Your H's A is a bout him, DailyG, not about you.

(((DG))) - a hug - and feel free not to take it if you don't want it

I don't expect anybody to get it right 100% of the time. This pressure to believe that infidelity is a relationship problem rather than a character problem has been a mainstay in how psychologists deal with infidelity as long as most of us can remember. It's taught in schools and practiced in therapy. I think it's human nature to not want to look another person in the face and say, "You know what?.. this is a YOU problem". No one wants to hear that, and being an empathetic human being means that most of us don't want to be the one to say it.

Just like with everything else, with Gottman I take what I need and leave the rest. I still do think he's a better source than just about everyone else in the field today though. And I think we're getting there. In the time which passed between my WH's foray into online infidelity and when I caught him live and in person, the landscape had changed a lot. The more people who spread the word that 'cheating is about the cheater', the more change is made.

Does being cheated on hurt less if the BS thinks that their behavior contributed in some way to the A versus the BS who was a walk on water spouse?

I would assume not but I’m not 100 percent sure.

I remember being a little triggered reading his book when he mentioned infidelity being the outcome of some of the scenarios. But I don't recall him justifying it. It was hard for me to read knowing the outcome of infidelity is now my story. Maybe I was too early in when I read it.

My takeaway from his book was his description of marriage masters: excel at making repair attempts during conflict and tension. Always figuring out how to turn towards each other.

During our marriage struggles I had all the same reasons to cheat and feelings of disconnection that she did. I didn't stray. Her decisions are on her.

I started "Seven Principles..." but never finished it. I do recall your quote and, at the time, rebelling against the idea. Having been a member of SI for several years, it seems rather clear to me that the state of one's marriage is merely a factor when it comes to the decision to engage in infidelity. I've read from multiple WS who admitted that they rewrote the history of their marriage, blaming their betrayed spouses, in order to justify what they knew to be inherently wrong.

I think what Gottman and a host of other psychologists blithely ignore is that in almost every case of infidelity the same issues that lead a wayward down Infidelity Lane are the very same issues that caused some of the problems in the marriage. My XWW, for instance, suffers from very strong codependent tendencies. Those CoD issues caused all sorts of issues in our relationship. Those same issues are a part of why she decided to cheat (desperate need for external validation she wasn't getting from me).

Most marriage have issues because the people in them have issues. Marital issues are not, however, to blame. Marriage don't cheat; people do,

Gottman was twice divorced before he married his current wife. I would wager dollars to donuts he was a cheater in his previous marriages.

Some of his stuff is ridiculous. Especially the 4 horseman. Criticism isn’t always a bad thing. We all give and receive critical feedback. The defensiveness thing is absurd too. We all need to defend ourselves against misperceptions and misunderstandings. To do otherwise is dishonest and it inhibits communication.

I always felt Gottman was a bit of a joke.

Gottman's approach to infidelity is the atone, attune, attach method. I think the biggest difference between Gottman and "SI common wisdom" is that we think you deserve whatever level of detail you want. He discourages talking about the details of the sex. I didn't notice this difference much since my wife had an EA.

Gottman says the wayward/involved/cheating partner is fully at fault for their actions.

Whether the marriage was good or bad before the A may have motivated the cheating, but that in no way carries part of the blame. A person can be motivated to murder, or commit other crimes. It still doesn't place blame on the victim.

IMHO, Gottman has a better (and newer) book that talks about a betrayal in a more detailed way: Gottman, John; Silver, Nan (2012), What Makes Love Last.

While reading that book (especially Chapter 3) I did not get the impression that he thinks the marital problems cause cheating or that he places the blame on BS. In fact, he clearly says that even if both spouses neglect their marriage, "it is not enough to land either partner in someone else's arms". He continues with saying that what primes someone for infidelity is a lack of sharing the true self + negative comparisons. He then basically adopts Shirley Glass' metaphor of "walls" and "windows" and gives it more meat. I'd recommend reading that book before any conclusions about his stance on infidelity.

To any BS: stop blaming yourself and your marriage, you were in that same marriage and you did not cheat.

If you want to think in terms of an 'M problem', I'm OK with that - as long as you name the problem correctly. For example, the problem in my M was that my W thought she could deal with her own issues by cheating.

Wholeheartedly agree on this sisoon. The way our MC put it to my wife (when she tried once to blame the M situation) was that the marriage was the soup...and maybe it tasted terrible at that point...but she was the one who chose to dump the kerosene in it and light a match. The M may have been bad soup...but she is the one who chose to burn it up.

A person can be motivated to murder, or commit other crimes. It still doesn't place blame on the victim.

Exactly.

Just like a person can wear anything they want; they are not "asking to" be raped. No matter our actions, the offender is making a choice to act or react in this manner--a choice among many different options. The WS had many options no matter their complaints.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:33 AM, Saturday, June 11th]

During our marriage struggles I had all the same excuses to cheat and feelings of disconnection that she did. I didn't stray. Her decisions are on her.

Fixed that for you.
And I echo your sentiment.

Daily - WH and I saw a Gottman-trained MC immediately after dday. Today I'd describe it as a comedy of errors, from seeing an MC (v IC) and seeing a Gottman MC, who was in WAY over her head with us. One of the big issues I had with that MC was the ASSUMPTION that the words coming out of my WH's mouth had any shred of HONESTY However, at the time, it was pretty damaging to me when WH spewed his crap (including that I and the M were the reasons for his infidelities, and all the "I don't recall" that most BS hear) and the MC saying it was ME who was stalling things for not believing/trusting him. She also gave us a ton of Gottman reading (starting with 4 horsemen).

My takeaway from that and the reading (at the time and since) has been that Gottman may be the "go to" for communication and other marital issues, but IMHO is not particularly helpful when it comes to infidelity - and certainly prior to a BS choosing to COMMIT to the path of R. One reason is that - and I'd say is shown in the responses on this thread - his writings are IMO often murky when it comes to responsibility, and in some works, one seems to have to read between the lines to get the takeaway that infidelity is a person problem and not an M problem. I find his writing (along with Janis Spring's After the Affair) to have a lot of subtle innuendo and implied BS-blaming (and with Spring not necessarily so subtle). In the days/weeks/months (or for me years) after dday, BS' traumatized brains are not functioning very well and often unable to discern those subtleties (or even recognize the nuanced ways in which the language is casting blame upon a BS). In one place he may (even clearly) say it's the WS choice, but then the next page delves into this nuanced language that implies otherwise, and while that may not consciously "register" when reading (esp for a newly traumatized brain), we DO take that in (esp when a BS may be desperate to find a sense of control, that can often lead to blaming themself to begin with, as if we "had only" x or y or z, then we can start doing THAT and control whether the WS continues to cheat - or at least convince ourselves of an ILLUSION of control over another's behavior)

Now, this does make some sense to me, in that his work is broadly about MARRIAGE, and plenty of marriages struggle/die without any infidelity.

IF my WH had done the work & shown himself to be R-worthy for me to commit to R, I think Gottman theory/methods would likely be very helpful. But w/o meeting that, IMO crucial, threshold, not so much. The atone, attune, attach STARTS with "atone" and, as I think plenty of us on SI have experienced/seen, many WH are never able to get there. It also seems to me that Gottman spends little/no time addressing the ways in which the WS' making the choice to cheat likely (always?) stem from long-standing patterns of unhealthy coping, things learned in FOO, or what Minwalla would call integrity disorders (and I see the ying/yang between the two as Gottman's base of work is broad as to marriage, while Minwalla's base of work is specific as to sex addiction, but both branch "in" [Gottman to infidellity] or "out" [Minwalla to non-SA infidelity and marriage] from their respective bases of work). I think glossing over the WS' unhealthy patterns is another nuanced way of implicitly blaming the M, vs the WS (which still makes SOME "sense" in that Gottman is focused on MARRIAGE, not specifically infidelity).

FWIW, I also believe Gottman was a WS, that his first TWO marriages ended in divorce is pretty well glossed over, which to my BS mind, raises some big red flags. Doesn't mean his research is not solid... but does, for me, question some of his writings on infidelity and most certainly the murky language he often uses about the "reasons" for the cheating to begin with.

And, like all things, we take what fits and leave the rest behind.

I do not think the bs is ever to blame for infidelity.

However- a ws is 50 percent of a relationship. A ws is responsible for their side of the marriage which includes looking out for their own happiness. We are notoriously lazy in this department. We are a species of "lack". Lack of character, lack of boundaries, lack of self awareness, etc.

How can a relationship be healthy if 50 percent of the equation doesn’t have the skills, gumption, knowledge to have a fully healthy relationship?

To R, a ws must change. This too will change the relationship. I went to a Gottman workshop for a weekend with my husband a year after my affair. They are geared towards building a stronger connection, the connection is only as strong as it’s weakest link. The relationship is not the bs’s sole responsibility and you can only account for your side of it. My marriage did lack elements that I did not realize but it lacked a lot in what I lacked.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:49 AM, Sunday, June 12th]

Hiking out
Thank you for the reply and your other posts.
They have given me so much insight into the mind and thought process of the WS
I think what you say about the "lack" is true of my ex.

We are a species of "lack". Lack of character, lack of boundaries, lack of self awareness, etc.

You commend you for doing an incredible amount of work to heal yourself and dig deep to be a safe partner.